A STUART PRINCE OF WALES - Cymru 1715 - 1745, three of the 'Jacobite Claiments', used the title 'Prince of Wales'; those we know more by titles James VII, 1688 - 1701. James VIII (Old Pretender) 1701 - 1766. Charles III (Young Pretender) 1766 - 1788. What if? the latter two ''pretenders'' had taken the title more serious than just as one other title, of many but took it upon themselves to use the title to their greater advantage. What if? they had played a ''Welsh Card'' has much has they played a ''Scottish One'', I am thinking specifically myself, in the ''Bonnie Prince Charlie Connection''. Reasons for which will become obvious below and then possibly make the ''hypothetical connection'' have greater potential as basis of consideraing an 'Alternate History' scenario. Read On:
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Having discovered the following "snippet" of information on the Web regards St Winefride's Well, it got me thinking. However, read the "snippet" first and then see my comments. "The last King to come on pilgrimage was James II, who came on 29 August 1686 with his Queen, Mary of Modena, to pray, it is said, for a Stuart Prince of Wales''. That was to be James Francis Edward Stuart, the ''Old Pretender'', as the Whigs called him, he was born on 10 June 1688, which was yearly celebrated afterwards as 'White Rose Day' by the 'Cycle of the White Rose' which is said to have met annually at Wrexham until about 1850. His son would be Charles Edward Stuart aka ''Bonnie Prince Charlie''. It was his younger brother Henry, Cardinal Bishop of Frascati (1594 1612) , who, as Henry IX, was the last Stuart serious claimant (although he never pressed the matter) to the thrones of England, Scotland, and Ireland. 'Non desideriis hominum, sed voluntate Dei', was the inscription on the medal which he caused to be struck. Mary of Modena's offering to Saint Winefride's shrine of part of the shift, which Mary Queen of Scots had worn at her execution, had been in the event a prophetic gift".
Having discovered the following "snippet" of information on the Web regards St Winefride's Well, it got me thinking. However, read the "snippet" first and then see my comments. "The last King to come on pilgrimage was James II, who came on 29 August 1686 with his Queen, Mary of Modena, to pray, it is said, for a Stuart Prince of Wales''. That was to be James Francis Edward Stuart, the ''Old Pretender'', as the Whigs called him, he was born on 10 June 1688, which was yearly celebrated afterwards as 'White Rose Day' by the 'Cycle of the White Rose' which is said to have met annually at Wrexham until about 1850. His son would be Charles Edward Stuart aka ''Bonnie Prince Charlie''. It was his younger brother Henry, Cardinal Bishop of Frascati (1594 1612) , who, as Henry IX, was the last Stuart serious claimant (although he never pressed the matter) to the thrones of England, Scotland, and Ireland. 'Non desideriis hominum, sed voluntate Dei', was the inscription on the medal which he caused to be struck. Mary of Modena's offering to Saint Winefride's shrine of part of the shift, which Mary Queen of Scots had worn at her execution, had been in the event a prophetic gift".
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...and so consider the below:
...and so consider the below:
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If "Welsh Jacobites" having recognised James VIII (old Pretender) as rightfully King they have then have recognised Charles Edward Stuart aka "Bonnie Prince Charlie" (Young Pretender) as a "Stuart Prince of Wales?". Thus, making it possible for me to pose a rather interesting "Hypothetical Question": I know it is a "What If?", but if "Bonnie Prince Charlie" had really pushed on this one, would he have gained much wider support for the "Jacobite Cause" in Cymru? Keeping in mind the attempts at "Unity and Solidarity" between Rhys ap Gruffydd (P.of.W claimant) in the 16th century with the Scottish Crown. Then would it not have been shrewd strategy to have marched into Cymru first, as David Morgan advised him to do, Here he could have proclaimed himself 'Tywysog Cymru' raised a "Welsh Jacobite Army" to march on London and maybe achieved a victory instead of retreat and defeat. In such case perhaps Henry Lloyd, David Morgan and a few others would not have "Cut such lonly figures". The Hypothetical question posed is this: If ''Bonnie Prince Charlie" had followed through on what I have hypothetically proposed above......would you have risen up in his support in this opportunity to "have a go at the English rulers of Wales", would you perhaps have seen it as a case of "England's disadvantage is Wales' opportunity" or would you have been more a 'Lowlander Scot' and supporter of the English Hanoverian Crown? Let me know some answers, it is an enterprising and enlightening way to consider our history. Would such scenario have been any more to a Welsh advantage in the 1700's than a similar ''Tudor Adventure'' was in the 1500's. Could Welsh History have turned out any different, what do you think? If for instance ''Bonnie Prince Charlie'' had turned towards Wales, he could have founded a ''Stuart Principlality'' here, and we would all be wearing proper ''Kilts'' long before the present ''Tartan Taffs'' arose, to feed their own style of fantasy. Plus we would have more bagpipies being blown than fiddles being fiddled plus we may have produce a ''Welsh'' Walter Scott and had some good romantic fiction to read. Haggis instead of Faggots and oatmeal instead of Lavabread. HHHhhhmmm!!! We may have seen more ''Taffies'' as engineers rather than teachers, and we might be flying the 'Cross of Saint Andrew', rather than the 'Cross of Saint David'. Last but not least, if we had lost that ''Welsh Jacobite Independence'', today we might be a lot nearer getting that Independence back? Whatever, will all existing secret members of the even more secret remnants of the 'Cycle of the White Rose' and 'Society of Sea Sergeants' be reminded that hence 30 July is ''Welsh Jacobite Day'' in memory of a couragous Welsh Man, David Morgan executed that day on the Surrey Gallows in 1746. ''Cilts Cymraeg'' may be worn at this commemoration and Bagpipes played.
If "Welsh Jacobites" having recognised James VIII (old Pretender) as rightfully King they have then have recognised Charles Edward Stuart aka "Bonnie Prince Charlie" (Young Pretender) as a "Stuart Prince of Wales?". Thus, making it possible for me to pose a rather interesting "Hypothetical Question": I know it is a "What If?", but if "Bonnie Prince Charlie" had really pushed on this one, would he have gained much wider support for the "Jacobite Cause" in Cymru? Keeping in mind the attempts at "Unity and Solidarity" between Rhys ap Gruffydd (P.of.W claimant) in the 16th century with the Scottish Crown. Then would it not have been shrewd strategy to have marched into Cymru first, as David Morgan advised him to do, Here he could have proclaimed himself 'Tywysog Cymru' raised a "Welsh Jacobite Army" to march on London and maybe achieved a victory instead of retreat and defeat. In such case perhaps Henry Lloyd, David Morgan and a few others would not have "Cut such lonly figures". The Hypothetical question posed is this: If ''Bonnie Prince Charlie" had followed through on what I have hypothetically proposed above......would you have risen up in his support in this opportunity to "have a go at the English rulers of Wales", would you perhaps have seen it as a case of "England's disadvantage is Wales' opportunity" or would you have been more a 'Lowlander Scot' and supporter of the English Hanoverian Crown? Let me know some answers, it is an enterprising and enlightening way to consider our history. Would such scenario have been any more to a Welsh advantage in the 1700's than a similar ''Tudor Adventure'' was in the 1500's. Could Welsh History have turned out any different, what do you think? If for instance ''Bonnie Prince Charlie'' had turned towards Wales, he could have founded a ''Stuart Principlality'' here, and we would all be wearing proper ''Kilts'' long before the present ''Tartan Taffs'' arose, to feed their own style of fantasy. Plus we would have more bagpipies being blown than fiddles being fiddled plus we may have produce a ''Welsh'' Walter Scott and had some good romantic fiction to read. Haggis instead of Faggots and oatmeal instead of Lavabread. HHHhhhmmm!!! We may have seen more ''Taffies'' as engineers rather than teachers, and we might be flying the 'Cross of Saint Andrew', rather than the 'Cross of Saint David'. Last but not least, if we had lost that ''Welsh Jacobite Independence'', today we might be a lot nearer getting that Independence back? Whatever, will all existing secret members of the even more secret remnants of the 'Cycle of the White Rose' and 'Society of Sea Sergeants' be reminded that hence 30 July is ''Welsh Jacobite Day'' in memory of a couragous Welsh Man, David Morgan executed that day on the Surrey Gallows in 1746. ''Cilts Cymraeg'' may be worn at this commemoration and Bagpipes played.
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Maybe you are "Welsh Republican" and you would prefer to hang around a little while and be a "Welsh Jacobin" in 1797 awaiting with a "Welsh Jacobin Republican Army" at Garreg Wasted for the French to land and Liberate Wales, massively welcomed by a "United Welshmen" uprising - but all to sadly not to be and again why? But what if?
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Welsh & Scottish Nationalism....Some thoughts and comparisons...Of course this would have all been an "Action Replay of Harri Tudur" and indeed that's was similar in mind of the Stuart claimant "Old and New Pretenders" to the throne of England, so just how does it become so "Scottish Nationalist" regards "Bonnie Prince Charlie and all that?" Largely due to the "English Reaction" to the Highlanders who supported the "Jacobite Cause" (See Rob Roy etc). The English reaction is to bring down a terror upon the highlands; Massacres are a plenty, confiscation of land and property, Jacobites forced into "Outlawry" and exile to the Americas (where rather ironically many of them become "Tories" and support the Hanoverians against the American rebellion. Don't ask me why, I have not looked into that yet, but I bet it's an economic matter) ...and not least "Gaelic is Banned". It is in all this that we find the English have provoked a Scottish Patriotism toward the Jacobite cause but? When, why and how did the "Jacobite Cause" become very much a plank of popular Scottish Nationalism...One does not have to look far...Go check out Sir Walter Scott and the ''Invention of Romantic Scottish Nationalism'' on the web. Read such and you will identify quickly why Scottish Political Nationalism (Same true for Ireland; See fictional nationalist writting on Connor the Smuggler and the Pirate Queen of Mayo) has always been a million miles ahead of "Welsh Political Nationalism”, which remains to this day the poor, weak and under nourished child of "Welsh Cultural Nationalism". Of course it's not simply a dose of adventurous reading that does the trick, the long folk memory of the Highland massacres and later the Highland clearances play a huge part in the maturing, development and advance of "Scottish Political Nationalism".
Welsh & Scottish Nationalism....Some thoughts and comparisons...Of course this would have all been an "Action Replay of Harri Tudur" and indeed that's was similar in mind of the Stuart claimant "Old and New Pretenders" to the throne of England, so just how does it become so "Scottish Nationalist" regards "Bonnie Prince Charlie and all that?" Largely due to the "English Reaction" to the Highlanders who supported the "Jacobite Cause" (See Rob Roy etc). The English reaction is to bring down a terror upon the highlands; Massacres are a plenty, confiscation of land and property, Jacobites forced into "Outlawry" and exile to the Americas (where rather ironically many of them become "Tories" and support the Hanoverians against the American rebellion. Don't ask me why, I have not looked into that yet, but I bet it's an economic matter) ...and not least "Gaelic is Banned". It is in all this that we find the English have provoked a Scottish Patriotism toward the Jacobite cause but? When, why and how did the "Jacobite Cause" become very much a plank of popular Scottish Nationalism...One does not have to look far...Go check out Sir Walter Scott and the ''Invention of Romantic Scottish Nationalism'' on the web. Read such and you will identify quickly why Scottish Political Nationalism (Same true for Ireland; See fictional nationalist writting on Connor the Smuggler and the Pirate Queen of Mayo) has always been a million miles ahead of "Welsh Political Nationalism”, which remains to this day the poor, weak and under nourished child of "Welsh Cultural Nationalism". Of course it's not simply a dose of adventurous reading that does the trick, the long folk memory of the Highland massacres and later the Highland clearances play a huge part in the maturing, development and advance of "Scottish Political Nationalism".
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Now look to Cymru again, despite the "Welsh Insolence" of the second English Civil War in Pembrokeshire, Cromwell does not give the Welsh a dose of Drogheda? Then despite all the "Welsh Anxt" about the "Welsh Not", well the English hardly really seriously attempted to thoroughly destroy "yr Hen Iaith". Please! Please! Patriots free you of "Cultural Nationalist Myths"; the "Welsh Not" was a "Home Goal", quite simply the English "Hi - Jacked "Yr Hen Iaith" to serve their "Protestant Cause". The English hostile to "yr Hen Iaith?" Hhhhmmm!!! Then what's all this about Elizabeth funding "Bardic Revival" (twice,' the birth of Grab a Grant Cymru), The Welsh Bible and then the work of the Cromwellian Puritan CPGW *. No the time the English get really worried about "yr Hen Iaith" is of consequence of the 1831 Welsh Insurrection at Hirwaun/Merthyr carried out by largely a 'Cymraeg Speaking' Working class population of the Head of the valleys. This worried the English Government but guess who pointed out to they, how to deal with this "Welsh Problem" none other than a "Toadying Taffy'' Lampeter born William Williams MP for Coventry - who advised the Government to send down to Wales "An army of school teachers to learn the Welsh the Queens English" ...all to sadly after 1848 that "Army" was to become largely a Welsh One and it is they who carry out the "Welsh Not", why? So that the rising "Cymraeg Speaking Victorian Welsh Capitalist Class" may have an "Educated Work Force", so that this class may become rich serving the needs of the BRITISH EMPIRE. (Read up on Sir Hugh Owen & David Davies). Sorry if that crushes a "Nationalist Myth" but it's true and you better believe it or you will ever be victims of "CRACHACH CYMRU" - ENGLAND'S CLIENT TRIBE IN CYMRU/WALES.
Now look to Cymru again, despite the "Welsh Insolence" of the second English Civil War in Pembrokeshire, Cromwell does not give the Welsh a dose of Drogheda? Then despite all the "Welsh Anxt" about the "Welsh Not", well the English hardly really seriously attempted to thoroughly destroy "yr Hen Iaith". Please! Please! Patriots free you of "Cultural Nationalist Myths"; the "Welsh Not" was a "Home Goal", quite simply the English "Hi - Jacked "Yr Hen Iaith" to serve their "Protestant Cause". The English hostile to "yr Hen Iaith?" Hhhhmmm!!! Then what's all this about Elizabeth funding "Bardic Revival" (twice,' the birth of Grab a Grant Cymru), The Welsh Bible and then the work of the Cromwellian Puritan CPGW *. No the time the English get really worried about "yr Hen Iaith" is of consequence of the 1831 Welsh Insurrection at Hirwaun/Merthyr carried out by largely a 'Cymraeg Speaking' Working class population of the Head of the valleys. This worried the English Government but guess who pointed out to they, how to deal with this "Welsh Problem" none other than a "Toadying Taffy'' Lampeter born William Williams MP for Coventry - who advised the Government to send down to Wales "An army of school teachers to learn the Welsh the Queens English" ...all to sadly after 1848 that "Army" was to become largely a Welsh One and it is they who carry out the "Welsh Not", why? So that the rising "Cymraeg Speaking Victorian Welsh Capitalist Class" may have an "Educated Work Force", so that this class may become rich serving the needs of the BRITISH EMPIRE. (Read up on Sir Hugh Owen & David Davies). Sorry if that crushes a "Nationalist Myth" but it's true and you better believe it or you will ever be victims of "CRACHACH CYMRU" - ENGLAND'S CLIENT TRIBE IN CYMRU/WALES.
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Oh yes! and who taught the 'Plant Cymraeg' to love and salute the 'UNION JACK', why the very same fella who was Inspector of Schools at hight of the ''Welsh Not'' business. Take another look at that notorious scene in 'How Green Was My Family', when the Welsh Teacher thrashes the kid for speaking 'Cymraeg' whose picture is on the Class Room wall, but of course Owen M. Edwards, Inspector of Schools and founder of Urdd Gobaith Cymru??? Then there's that Sir Thomas Phillips, Lord Mayor of Newport in 1839, who orders English troops to fire on 'Cymraeg' speaking workers. He of course is an ''heroic'' defender of our native language against the accusations of the 'Blue Books' and in recent times voted an ''hero'' by Newport Tories. History is so complex, none no more so than ours.
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* CPGW = 'Commission for the Propagation of the Gospel in Wales', this is where the Cymry forsake Country and go over to God big time! Seek this out on the web and read of Cymru/Wales as a "Dark Corner of the land". You will here find the TEMPLATE FOR THE FUTURE SUCCESS OF BRITISH IMPERIALISM IN COLONISATION OF SUCH AN HUGE EMPIRE, I am sure you have heard this before: Send in the Missionaries, teach the natives about God and of course "Love, Peace and Pacifism", of course you also teach the natives that God's design is that the Imperialist have a superior Culture as Shakespeare etc. Then when the native is totally "Tame as Taffies", just send in the traders with the "hooch & beads" and we all know what follows, yes! The "COLONIAL LAND GRABBERS WITH THEIR SOLDIER FRIENDS". FIN!
* CPGW = 'Commission for the Propagation of the Gospel in Wales', this is where the Cymry forsake Country and go over to God big time! Seek this out on the web and read of Cymru/Wales as a "Dark Corner of the land". You will here find the TEMPLATE FOR THE FUTURE SUCCESS OF BRITISH IMPERIALISM IN COLONISATION OF SUCH AN HUGE EMPIRE, I am sure you have heard this before: Send in the Missionaries, teach the natives about God and of course "Love, Peace and Pacifism", of course you also teach the natives that God's design is that the Imperialist have a superior Culture as Shakespeare etc. Then when the native is totally "Tame as Taffies", just send in the traders with the "hooch & beads" and we all know what follows, yes! The "COLONIAL LAND GRABBERS WITH THEIR SOLDIER FRIENDS". FIN!
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Yours Truly.
Yours Truly.
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G.Gruffydd.
G.Gruffydd.
